Okay,
The topic here is (if I understand it correctly) whether or not people can redraft only as many timeshifted cards as the number of time spiral packs they opened before the draft.
I got an email from Dan,and I figured it would be best to post it somewhere and let people respond rather than try to forward all the emails I would get.
I've gotten a lot of emails against this measure, but I'm not sure whether people were trying to convince me or everyone else. If you want to post, go right ahead, but if you'd rather I find your old email and post it (if I have it) then that's cool too.
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6 comments:
Dan's email:
First, we must decide whether timespiral players contribute their
timeshifted card to the backdraft or not. Clearly this whole discussion
of backdraft restrictions is moot if they don't. So let us assume they
do. Then we must consider why they should. I contend that the only
compelling reason to want this is because these cards are somehow rarer
and thus under more contention. That is, they are more valuable. In
this case, by requiring the time-spiral opener to contribute this card
to the backdraft pool, each timespiral pack opener has given up
something that other players have not, since they only gave up one
standard rare per pack. If we allow regular backdrafting of timeshifted
cards, then not every player will leave with the same number of cards
(1).
Now there is a very good argument to be made that the expected value of
the TS rare plus purple should be the pack price, and that the pack
price is now the same as what Rav block goes for. Close, but I think
wrong. A pack's price should be the expected value of all the cards.
Not just the rare ones. The chase uncommons too. Also, this is true in
the limit, but not at all true short term. Cards like Psionic Blast
were legitimately really rare a few months ago. Now hundreds of
thousands have been printed. But they're not all in circulation yet.
So their values don't reflect their availability. In fact, someone said
the other day that the expected value of a Time Spiral pack is currently
higher than the suggested price per pack.
Another counter argument vs. timeshift sidedraft goes "this is wacky
draft, I'm afraid people will/won't draft Time Spiral because of the
altered backdraft rules." Well I think the lack of agreement about the
will/won't sort of belies the weakness of this argument. Also, I won't
want to open Time Spiral if it feels like I'm already taking a loss over
what I'd get if I just opened Time Spiral packs alone at home. So I
don't see that line of argument as being persuasive.
So what should we do? I initially proposed that there would be the
normal backdraft, and then a side backdraft of only purples with up to 3
rounds, where you participate in as many rounds as TS packs you opened.
NOTES:
(1) "Not every player will leave with the same number of cards." But
this is true when people open packs with more or less than 15 cards,
right? Right. The difference is that if I open those packs, I'm
contributing less commons to the pool. Who cares? This debate is about
cards that are good enough to want backdrafting. Not just more Fallen
Empires crap like Icatian Javelineers. Oh wait, those are timeshifted.
I guess it could come down to backdrafting Icatian Javelineers. But I
think we can all agree it's Akroma we're talking about.
The "Timeshifted" Cards should be counted as rares, as they are "rare-r" then "rares". Meaning, you need to open more boxes/packs to get a timeshifted card, then a specific rare.
Therefore, since they are rare, and some are very pricey, they should in fact be backdrafted. Just like other "rare" cards, such as foils.
Dan, you completely miss the point of the "this is wacky draft" argument. Your first mistake is in your ambivalent description of it, that people "will/won't" draft TS. I don't know what other people have been saying, so maybe I'm missing out here, but there will be a definite, singular response after this issue has been resolved. If timeshifted cards are added to the backdraft, people will not have an extra preference for TS packs. If we decided that they are to be kept amongst TS openers, more players will open TS. So there are two possible outcomes, depending on our decision. (If you don't understand why people will open different packs depending on whether timeshifted cards are backdrafted, I can write about that but I think it's obvious.) Do not confuse this with a lack of agreement. There is no dissonance in this argument that diminishes it.
That being said, This is wacky draft. Our primary motivation for drafting is not to get good or expensive cards. We draft for the sake of drafting, which becomes very fun when people are opening weird packs. From a normal player's perspective I can sympathize with your obstinance against opening a TS pack at a loss. But as a wacky drafter, I couldn't care less about your problems. You say you wouldn't open a TS pack at a loss when you would rather open one at home? What about a pack of mirrodin or legions? I would never open one of those at home. But I do at BU. Because it's wacky. We've been opening packs at a loss for a long time, ever since we've opened things we had no use for but amusement. It's not irrational, not illogical, it's wacky.
I just want to remind everyone to be sure to be very polite on this thing-a-majig. This is not nor should it become a hostile issue:-P
I don't particularly agree with the idea of having a seperate timeshifted redraft. If we're going to restrict who can pick timeshifted cards, then those picks should be made in turn with the other cards, it seems. Otherwise it seems like the winner of the draft could essentially make off with a great rare from the regular redraft, then first pick akroma from the second pool.
Timespiral purples should be redrafted just like rares, and everyone should have an equal chance of redrafting them.
The basic principle is that once you have decided to open packs in a draft, you no longer have any claim on them. They aren't yours anymore; they belong to the whole group. Nonfoil commons and uncommons go to the player who drafted them; and foils, rares, and purples go to the player who backdrafts them. None of the cards go specifically to the player who opens them.
Our group has never made any distinctions based on the value of the packs people open. If someone opens a Masques pack, which has virtually no chase rares, they get the same redraft chances as everyone. If someone pulls a chase foil uncommon, or an extra rare (as I did in two Invasion packs), they do not get extra picks. We give everyone the same chances because we want to encourage diversity in packs opened. So whether you open Mudhole or Foil Akroma, you still get the same picks.
Obviously, it is your choice whether add your TS packs to the draft pool. If you think you would be losing value by drafting them, then don't. But if you do, they all belong to the whole group, which all has equal claim on them.
This one's from Jesse:
Umm, I think that it's silly
to limit the Timeshifted cards to only people that open timespiral,
because what if the best card is timeshifted and the winner of the
draft didn't open any Timespiral. That takes the benefit of winning
away. No, you're just risking more by opening timespiral--if you want
to get just what you contribute, don't open Timespiral, even though
it's benefitting you to open it anyway. Redraft as normal.
-Jesse
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